weeble wrote:
Citrus wrote:
1 to 1 is OP.How many Warlocks in the top 10 2v2 US arena? Zero.
How many Warriors in the top 10 2v2 US arena? Five.
Warriors are OP.
Not only does this totally mess up the way a Warlock works in arena, but its a completely whack mechanic too.
If your max mana doesn't go up at the same rate as your max stamina, you're penalized more and more.
EDIT: Top U.S. 2v2 Arena teams.
Warriors got nerfed up the ass too in almost every big patch. But seriously, warlock had been OP since the beginning overall. The 1 man army? What other class can do crazy shit like warlocks do, with ease. To me, mana is everything in PVP and PVE, and I don't think warlock ever had to worry about getting mana burn or run out of mana, ever. Which is unheard of in any MMO.
16% maybe a bit much, but 1 to 1 is definitely OP.
Citrus wrote:
You're just mad cuz they are /fairywanding your two main classes
Warriors got nerfed up the ass too in almost every big patch. But seriously, warlock had been OP since the beginning overall. The 1 man army? What other class can do crazy shit like warlocks do, with ease. To me, mana is everything in PVP and PVE, and I don't think warlock ever had to worry about getting mana burn or run out of mana, ever. Which is unheard of in any MMO.
16% maybe a bit much, but 1 to 1 is definitely OP.
Well yeah of course I'm angry they're nerfing my classes. So what? No argument there, just like there's no argument in the statement that 1 to 1 is OP. That's like me saying you're just happy that one of the classes that posed a threat to your Warrior is getting nerfed.
Warlocks weren't always OP. They actually sucked big time until patch 1.6 (mid 2005) and got to the peak of their power in patch 1.8 (end of 2005) when they got Death Coil to have the fear effect and then Warlocks became extremely powerful. But even back then, a geared Warrior or a very skilled Rogue would beat a Warlock (yes, even before CloS). However, since then Warlock power has been a steady series of plateaus and declines.
The class that was OP since the start is Warrior... assuming of course that the warrior was geared. Sure there have been some big (deserved) nerfs (Enrage + 40% damage lol) but much of the Warrior's power comes directly from his weapon so as the game itemization progressed, Warrior power progressed along with it (usually better than mana users' power). That's how "balance" was handled: Warrior isn't too bad unless they get their hands on some gear, then they are beasts. That way the masses playing the game won't get pissed because there won't be that many unstoppable killing machines.
Warriors will eventually get their nerf too, it just happens so slowly because Tom "Kalgan" Chilton and Jeff "Tigole" Kaplan, lead game designers for WoW, both happen to roll warriors themselves (Jeff even played one in Everquest and made a very large number of pro-warrior/anti-hybrid posts back then) and I'm sure they are more than happy to investigate every other possible balancing option for group combat before touching their baby.
I'm pretty sure tigole played a rogue in eq, plus his main focus is in pve content so im not sure where that is going. Generally balance revolves around balancing the main 3 classes (tank/dps/healing) and then move on to hybrids/support afterwards. Basically those 3 should set the guideline for other classes to follow. That's why there's generally 1 good spec for tank/dps/healing while the hybrid/support classes have a little leeway in terms of talent specs. The problem here is that this balance revolves around PVE as a priority and PVP comes second so it's not really fair to gauge who is OP "since the beginning". They seem to be doing an ok job making these changes and managing to not hurt pve too much at the same time.
weeble wrote:
Citrus wrote:
You're just mad cuz they are /fairywanding your two main classes
Warriors got nerfed up the ass too in almost every big patch. But seriously, warlock had been OP since the beginning overall. The 1 man army? What other class can do crazy shit like warlocks do, with ease. To me, mana is everything in PVP and PVE, and I don't think warlock ever had to worry about getting mana burn or run out of mana, ever. Which is unheard of in any MMO.
16% maybe a bit much, but 1 to 1 is definitely OP.Well yeah of course I'm angry they're nerfing my classes. So what? No argument there, just like there's no argument in the statement that 1 to 1 is OP. That's like me saying you're just happy that one of the classes that posed a threat to your Warrior is getting nerfed.
Warlocks weren't always OP. They actually sucked big time until patch 1.6 (mid 2005) and got to the peak of their power in patch 1.8 (end of 2005) when they got Death Coil to have the fear effect and then Warlocks became extremely powerful. But even back then, a geared Warrior or a very skilled Rogue would beat a Warlock (yes, even before CloS). However, since then Warlock power has been a steady series of plateaus and declines.
The class that was OP since the start is Warrior... assuming of course that the warrior was geared. Sure there have been some big (deserved) nerfs (Enrage + 40% damage lol) but much of the Warrior's power comes directly from his weapon so as the game itemization progressed, Warrior power progressed along with it (usually better than mana users' power). That's how "balance" was handled: Warrior isn't too bad unless they get their hands on some gear, then they are beasts. That way the masses playing the game won't get pissed because there won't be that many unstoppable killing machines.
Warriors will eventually get their nerf too, it just happens so slowly because Tom "Kalgan" Chilton and Jeff "Tigole" Kaplan, lead game designers for WoW, both happen to roll warriors themselves (Jeff even played one in Everquest and made a very large number of pro-warrior/anti-hybrid posts back then) and I'm sure they are more than happy to investigate every other possible balancing option for group combat before touching their baby.
wtghaha wrote:I'm pretty sure tigole played a rogue in eq, plus his main focus is in pve content so im not sure where that is going. Generally balance revolves around balancing the main 3 classes (tank/dps/healing) and then move on to hybrids/support afterwards. Basically those 3 should set the guideline for other classes to follow. That's why there's generally 1 good spec for tank/dps/healing while the hybrid/support classes have a little leeway in terms of talent specs. The problem here is that this balance revolves around PVE as a priority and PVP comes second so it's not really fair to gauge who is OP "since the beginning". They seem to be doing an ok job making these changes and managing to not hurt pve too much at the same time.
weeble wrote:
Citrus wrote:
You're just mad cuz they are /fairywanding your two main classes
Warriors got nerfed up the ass too in almost every big patch. But seriously, warlock had been OP since the beginning overall. The 1 man army? What other class can do crazy shit like warlocks do, with ease. To me, mana is everything in PVP and PVE, and I don't think warlock ever had to worry about getting mana burn or run out of mana, ever. Which is unheard of in any MMO.
16% maybe a bit much, but 1 to 1 is definitely OP.Well yeah of course I'm angry they're nerfing my classes. So what? No argument there, just like there's no argument in the statement that 1 to 1 is OP. That's like me saying you're just happy that one of the classes that posed a threat to your Warrior is getting nerfed.
Warlocks weren't always OP. They actually sucked big time until patch 1.6 (mid 2005) and got to the peak of their power in patch 1.8 (end of 2005) when they got Death Coil to have the fear effect and then Warlocks became extremely powerful. But even back then, a geared Warrior or a very skilled Rogue would beat a Warlock (yes, even before CloS). However, since then Warlock power has been a steady series of plateaus and declines.
The class that was OP since the start is Warrior... assuming of course that the warrior was geared. Sure there have been some big (deserved) nerfs (Enrage + 40% damage lol) but much of the Warrior's power comes directly from his weapon so as the game itemization progressed, Warrior power progressed along with it (usually better than mana users' power). That's how "balance" was handled: Warrior isn't too bad unless they get their hands on some gear, then they are beasts. That way the masses playing the game won't get pissed because there won't be that many unstoppable killing machines.
Warriors will eventually get their nerf too, it just happens so slowly because Tom "Kalgan" Chilton and Jeff "Tigole" Kaplan, lead game designers for WoW, both happen to roll warriors themselves (Jeff even played one in Everquest and made a very large number of pro-warrior/anti-hybrid posts back then) and I'm sure they are more than happy to investigate every other possible balancing option for group combat before touching their baby.
My mistake... Furor is the Warrior I was thinking about. Furor was brought in by Tigole to be a quest designer. They both hated on hybrids (especially Paladins) back in the EQ days so I get them mixed up. But actually, it makes a ton of sense that Tigole would be a Rogue. Rogues have been able to dominate every class but Warrior since day 1, and even then I've seen examples of Rogues that would kill Warriors. Back when Warlocks were so dominant, I remember being killed by a certain Rogue even while I had my Voidwalker out; today it is laughable how easily a Rogue beats a Warlock. Actually, on a side note, the lock being so buff is also something that goes back to EQ.
As for the designers having their own spheres of influence... if you've ever worked with game designers, you know they are a tight knit bunch. As long as they respect each other as designers, they confer on EVERYTHING. So just because Tigole is Lead Designer for non-class balance stuff, doesn't really mean he and Jeff don't trade ideas and discuss opinions. Another thing about designers: they have favorite things in the games they design... and they defend those things (sometimes vehemently). It takes exceptionally professional designers to avoid that pitfall. I haven't seen many posts from Kalgan to get an idea of what level his professionalism is, but good ol' Tigole Bitties (har har) loved to troll forums (Furor was pretty outrageous too, which is why I get these two guys mixed up). Also, as far as I know, these guys don't have games experience before WoW... even though they're titled 'Lead Designers', they're not to be confused with Rob Pardo.
I'm sure the other designers would jump in with their balance conerns if they saw issues right? Well if you're a designer on an ubergame like WoW and the top two designers play Warrior and Rogue, you can bet your paycheck they're going to shut up and go with the flow... or they're gone.
The idea of tank+healer+dps isn't THE way it has to be done, its the way EQ was done and WoW borrowed on. Those roles aren't self-evident laws of raiding or fantasy. But the ideas have been around a long time (D&D) so its easy to believe it is the way god intended things to be. Also the game wasn't a PvE game to start. The game is based on the Warcraft series and actually has PvP at its heart. There's 2 sides, and we can't even TALK to each other. That's not there to foster a great PvE environment. The reason the game went so PvE heavy is exactly because they hired these old EQ hands. They made the game more and more like EQ. I don't think that's the reason the game is doing so great, but rather its the immersive world, art quality, and general execution quality of the game. Even with putting so much emphasis on PvP lately (arena, etc.) we're not seeing WoW's subscriptions go down. In an MMO, the more there is to do, the better (as long as things don't get diluted)... not everyone is going to want to PvE (just like many people don't really want to PvP).
The point is, its a mistake to put more emphasis on "pure" classes because they end up alienating alot of people that aren't playing those classes. They should approach it from a balanced stand point and not one in which there are classes that are more important than others.
I'm not worried tho, when they go around doing wacky balance, things always come around full circle again and in the meantime there are other games to get my PvP fix on.
